Are agile PMs Baloney?

by Adam Bullied on Feb 11, 09

Agile Dancer

This could catch me some heat, but I thought it was an interesting conversation so I figured I’d put it out there.

I was having a discussion with a friend over lunch a couple of weeks back, and he made a point that I kind of believed in, but never said out loud, which was essentially that the concept of an “agile product manager” really doesn’t hold much water.

OK, there – it’s out there now. I can’t take it back. And what may be even more sacrilegious – I agree with him.

“Agile” in and of itself is a development framework; I won’t even venture far enough out to say it’s a methodology. Although I’m sure some disagree, but it’s just semantics at this point.

My belief has always been, product management doesn’t change that much regardless of whether you are in tech (B2B or B2C), consumer products (like soap or fabric softener), cars, electronics, etc… Essentially it all boils down to the exact same things: you have a market, and they have a problem. You are charged with crafting the most ideal way to solve that problem, and then making that vision a reality.

Regardless of HOW those charged with executing that vision (or building the requirements) choose to do that, your paradigm doesn’t change. Developers can be working in waterfall, or they can be working in agile. You, as a product manager, shouldn’t care.

Aside from delivering market requirements and making sure things are getting done, the rest is noise.

Yes, you could write feature ideas on sticky notes. You can call those ideas a backlog. You could review them at regular intervals. Does that make you an “agile” PM? Not really – it just means you are doing your job.

Now, don’t grab your pitchforks and torches to come after me yet. Just think about it for a second.

A dev team or engineering team can choose to implement the requirements you, as a product manger, give them in any way they like – so long as they hit their schedule and estimated dates. How does that impact you? It shouldn’t. If you think it does, you are too involved in development – and being that involved in a conscious choice.

I think where most people get hung-up is the requirements themselves. If you are writing them as “as a user, i want to do X, so that I can achieve goal Y” – does that make you an “agile PM?” Not really. How is that any different than, “the system shall do X so user can achieve goal y?”

They both need mock-ups. They both need acceptance tests. They both need to be implemented.

Of course I’m going a little extreme here to make the point. Agile and waterfall have their distinct differences. And yes, they do affect product – but that’s because product works with engineers to get the product they are managing built so it can be released / sold / whatever.

At the end of the day you, as a product guy or gal, are still doing the same things: researching the market, identifying problems, devising solutions, talking to customers, providing requirements, monitoring releases, crafting positioning, etc…

Don’t get hung up on whether or not you are “agile.” You still have to get the exact same things done – regardless of the time table development is using to release them.

Let the flame war begin…

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  • mediadude
    Tremendous discussion - glad to hear that others struggle with this issue.

    On the face of it, those who come down on the side of "it doesn't matter whether the team is using agile, waterfall or voodoo as their work pattern" are correct. At least, all things being equal.

    But, as a product guy who has worked in all three environments (yes, including voodoo workpatterns ;-) ), my experience tells me that I DO care what work pattern the team uses if the team cannot produce the needed results using that method.

    This is based on the presumption that the primary goal of the Product Manager is to produce results that exceed the market's expectations.

    For example, a project that is defined by a small team, co-located, with a fully engaged group of SMEs and business leaders is well suited for an agile work pattern. A project that is defined by a large, geographically dispersed team with SMEs and business leaders who "drop in" occasionally is best served by a waterfall work pattern. So, as a product manager, if I can have a choice of the methodology my dev manager uses, I would choose the one that best fits the total need of the project.

    So - to the fundamental question of Adam's first post - is there such a thing as an "Agile Product Manager?" Well, yes - in the sense that the "agile product manager" can viscerally understand what workpattern is going to be most likely to get the job done and then be able to actually function in that environment. Is there such a thing as a Product Manager who only works in agile? No - because agile is not the right solution for all projects (please defend me from the barbs and arrows for saying that).

    So - that's my opinion. Have others experienced this as well?
  • Came here from a on the Enthiosys site "How To Sound Smart (But Be Really Naive) ..." Loving the conversation here. I think the job of a PM is somewhere in the middle, not as skewed towards tools/frameworks as indicated on the Enthiosys blog and not as insulated from newer tools/frameworks as this post is trying to suggest. But I do agree with the gist of this post that the core of the PM job has not really changed, the tools have.

    Job skills are based on fundamentals and tools augment them. That's why education is based mostly on fundamentals and add some applied perspective with tools.

    I believe the skills and tools aspect of PM should not be mixed up. I'd take a PM with good fundamental skills any day and train them to use the latest and greatest tools/frameworks rather than have someone very fast on the tools/frameworks but weak in fundamentals.

    I think there are fundamental skills that a Product Manager should understand and possess and good tools/frameworks like Agile/Scrum just augment them. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you don't have to acquire additional newer skills to learn these new tools/frameworks to make your self more efficient/effective in what you do.

    However to me it's a layer that you put on top of the core skill set.
  • Totally agree, Darayush. I couldn't have said it better myself!
  • I love it when i read such objective posts on Agile/Scrum. If you think that the Product Manager role is trivial, then what do you think when there are 2 roles, the Product Manager and the Product Owner?

    I did publish an article on the role of the product owner/product manager. What's interesting is that the author merged the 2 roles from the get-go (Btw, in case you had the chance to read the article, look at the challenges part).
  • I agree with you Adam. The market has problems and a PMs job is to figure out how to solve that problem in a profitable way (assuming profit is the motive). Unfortunately many "product managers" are really project managers that get sucked into the private hell of development. Product marketing managers feel the Agile angst as it relates to launching products, and wonder how they too can be more "agile". I say it doesn't matter. You're not going to launch a product after every iteration because a) you don't need to and b) your sales channel couldn't absorb the change. Hmmm... agile sales? Not going to happen.
  • Very nicely said - and some great points. I think PMs always run the risk (especially in start-ups where they don't have a team surrounding them - they are usually running solo) of getting tied-up fighting fires too much.

    I know I've done it. It's something I always try to keep my eye on...
  • Very interesting post and discussion!

    In my view, Product Managers--the good ones, anyway--are "agile" by nature, regardless of how development is configured.

    For example, we're often accountable for the success of our products without line management authority over those working on our products. This requires agility, as you work within a matrix environment and essentially lead others, get things done through them, without authority.

    Market research, proper pricing, win/loss analysis, web-based sales & marketing collateral, market segmentation ... I've heard several people say these are "agile PM" duties, but really these are simply the responsibilities of any Product Manager, and they just happen to require an agile frame of mind.

    Put a different way: If you aren't doing these things, and you're a PM, you're not really doing your job.

    - Chris
    http://twitter.com/chriscummings01
  • Setting aside all of the labeling, I (strongly) believe it's true that agile dev teams need much more from their PMs, intensively and more frequently, than old-style dev teams. And that part of the goodness of agile comes on the backs of PMs. So whatever we call it, there's 40% more stuff for PMs to do, and more time constraints.
    So I'm seeing more success with pairs (trios) of managers -- call them technical PM and strategic/outbound PM if you like -- than with lone gun PMs trying to pile more onto a very challenging role.
    This is a management (think executive) issue, not just an "I'm so tough I can do anything" posturing problem. The agilists ignore [hate] product managers and try to define them out of the process, and the traditionalist PMs ignore the subtleties of making software so that they can hide behind their "no new thing under the sun" rationale.
  • Rich,

    I think the "lone gun" PM as you describe it was a broken model to begin with. And that had nothing to do with Agile. Maybe Agile will benefit Product Management as a whole by raising the understanding that Product Management must exist as a corporate function with specialized roles, and not simply as a small team of individuals who are "hub of the wheel" or whatever trite description is applicable.

    But in the end, Agile as a development methodology has to mature to the point where decision making on a day to day basis must be handled by the development team with input from the "customer advocate", vs. the other way around which is what many development teams seem to expect with Agile.

    Funny how developers (at least those that I worked with) could make good tactical daily decisions without my input before, but once they move to Agile, they seem to lose that capacity or expect that they can offload that to someone else.

    It's a maturity issue WRT Agile.

    Product Management needs to be business and market focused with an interface into Engineering, and not the other way around as is the case in far too many companies.

    Staff Product Management appropriately (i.e. with both the right number and skillset of PMs) and the quality and detail of the requirements will (magically) rise and the day to day dependency on PM will magically drop.

    Saeed
  • So true. I've been in way too many instances where the expectation was, "keep your head down and get development what they need" - at the expense of figuring out what the market truly is.

    And the product suffers as a result.

    Of course you have to work closely with development. Maybe more so than other functions (maybe except for Marketing) - maybe not. I think that depends on what you (as the PM) are getting out of each group within a specific scenario.

    You may find in one company Sales requires more attention than customer support, or marketing, and so on. You can have a best guess, but until you are in there dealing with day-to-day minutiae it's almost impossible to tell.

    But at the end of the day, PMs can't be firefighters for too long. Sure, everyone has to do that once in a while - but not to the detriment of the business to which the product serves.
  • Well put, Rich - very well put.
  • Simon King
    I've got to agree: get people involved by starting small and never use buzzwords until they've bought in.

    I'm a Project Manager who's starting to buy into some of the agile / Scrum artefacts & processes. In order to get the 'marketing representative' on board with some of the agile thinking and doing, I set up a backlog and explained it to him. He loves the fact that he can add / delete / amend items and change the priority whenever he wants, in short he loves being in continual control over what the product will consist of. He also loves having something early to take to our key customers for feedback, feedback we have the time and the system to be able to incorporate into the product before it's released and therefore reduces cost and reduces the risk of the product falling flat on its face (it also starts to create a buzz).

    He doesn't care that it's all part of the agile movement, all he cares about is that he has control over the product development, that can development can be re-directed very easily and cheaply and that he can halt the development whilst still having a releasable product.
  • Where I disagree with the notion "You are charged with crafting the most ideal way to solve that problem, and then making that vision a reality." Am I charged with that? I thought I was charged with generating revenues on a recurring basis.

    I do agree that a product manager shouldn't care what methodology gets used. If I worried about the methodology that development used, then I'd have to care about the methodology marketing used, and the methodology that everyone else in the offer used. That would be way too much and really each of those business functions has their own management to worry about those things. Just give me an accurate estimates of cost and schedule for each element of the offer.

    I'd go so far as to say that a product manager has much to care about and development is only one thing on the list. Sure it is the schedule driver, so give me an estimate that everyone else can rely upon.

    A long time ago, I was told by a programmer that he delivers functionality not usability. Having worked in software startups for a long time, I never saw a programmer interacting with customers. They don't do that. Largely, they code to spec or they code to themselves. This is fine in version 1.0 when it is the founder's vision that gets coded, but when you are out on version 6.0 and still expect to live long, it doesn't work. The software industry isn't about programmer creativity. It is about coding to meet customer needs. Those needs proliferate later in the lifecycle of software products. Those needs diverge for geek feature bloat. Can you expect a programmer to stop coding the familiar and code to meet the needs of the late market? No. That's where a product manager becomes essential. Yes, early on, before a product manager gets hired, the programmers don't need them. At some point this changes.
  • I have to disagree with you on several points here David. And if I may say so, based on your comments, I am going to guess that you have never worked in an agile environment.

    You say "just give me an accurate estimates of cost and schedule for each element of the offer" and "... give me an estimate that everyone else can rely upon. " In two sentences you've summed up everything that is wrong with the status quo (waterfall) in product development today. This is a throw it over the wall, "you do your job & I'll do mine" approach - it doesn't work.

    Requirements are always imprecise and are often inaccurate - and they frequently change. Estimates are imprecise and their degree of imprecision is directly correlated to the size of the effort (see my post http://marketada.com/creating-optimally-sized-u...). Agile accommodates all of this, and in doing so gives you a better chance of success in the market - and that is the product manager's ultimate responsibility. This is why I maintain that the PM should concern him/herself with development methodology.

    Forgive the next few lines, but you touched a nerve..... Your perception of "programmers" as heads-down keyboard monkeys is really quite dated, and more than a little insulting. It's been my experience that developers care deeply about the customer - because they want their code to create value for users. This is, in fact, what motivates most engineers - they want to create tools that people find useful. Next time you visit a customer, take a developer with you. I think you'll be surprised at the outcome.
  • Bravo, David! Ohh, I just got goosebumps -- I swear!

    Very pragmatic - and VERY grounded in reality. You are bang-on. Couldn't have said it better myself.

    I concur - my description of being charged with "making a vision a reality" is a little bit of business jibber-jabber. You (and in most start-up cases - the CEO) is charged with generating revenues on a daily basis.

    If you are in a 1-2 product company with 12-50 people the CEO isn't 100% focused on the revenues / P%L and expects you (the PM) to be accountable to the board (especially when VC-backed) someone has had too much kool-aid.

    Or, they don't know how to be a CEO of a start-up...
  • Hand-wave much? ;)

    I think one difference between average and great product managers is that they care a ton about how their engineering team works, and they collaborate with that team so that both sides have an optimal working relationship.

    If you go about your roadmap and specs in a classic waterfall way and the rest of the organization is very agile, or the other way around, you are probably cruising for a bruising.
  • Good PMs should care about how every team works in the org. Cross-functional - and even though folks like to talk about special engineers are; I don't mean to sound like an a-hole, but they are part of the team like everybody else. Same as PMs, Sales, Marketing. They play just an equal part in making the company a success.

    A PM has to work to have a good internal / political relationship with all parts / people of the company for an optimal working relationship.

    And of course, trying to be strategic in a way that's different from how the company actually works is a recipe for disaster.
  • people over process.

    hah. i said it. loving this discussion very much!
  • Amazing discussion. I think Adam just hates labels... so starting tomorrow I am the newly appointed - Agile CEO of Product. Deal.

    I do think we are getting lost in a process vs. responsibility discussion. Whether you are a Waterfall Product Manager or an Agile Product Manager your mission is the same - sustainable ROI. I think we all agree on that.

    I think we all agree that for the most part, working in an Agile software development (because that is what it is) process offers a number of benefits to the Product Manager that are more difficult to realize in a Waterfall environment. However, in some situations Waterfall is required and Product Managers in this environment can be just as successful as their Agile counterparts.
  • Totally agree. Well said, Stewart.

    Everyone seems to be buying in to the agile religion. Does anyone actually work in a 100% purely agile (down to the letter of a certain framework) org? Um, if you answered "yes" you are probably doing something wrong.

    Agile is just that a framework (not a methodology) - no one is "100% scrum" - each framework (scrum, etc...) is meant to be adopted and used to the suit the situation best. This means adding things that work for you and removing things that don't.

    I know, I know - this doesn't sound very sexy on paper. But it's reality. I've said before (I think in a post a while back) - if I have my CEO breathing down my neck to get something out the door I'm not going to throw "well, this isn't how agile works" in his face.

    I'm going to get it done, or else I'm going to expect to get canned. Reality.

    You never want to be the guy / gal forcing a round peg in to a square hole just because everyone is whispering the magic of agile in your ear. Yes it can work - in CERTAIN scenarios. it's not for everyone.

    You ever try to tell a 200 person banking project managing billions of dollars of transactions they should be agile? i have. They look at you funny and tell you if they did that, their entire team would be out of work and the project would fail instantly.

    And, yes -- I've always hated labels. Ever since I learned that titles aren't worth a damn. I swear, when I start my first company I will not be the CEO - I will be the Chief Men's Room Attendant.

    I use pieces of agile in my day-to-day work. I swear. After this, some folks may not believe me - but it's due in large part to how Saeed describes the role - and how it should be inherently "agile" in its attitudes and execution.

    And somewhere in this thread is the absolute truth - it is hard to implement, regardless of the size of the company. It's tough. You know what's better? Adopting the attitudes and key fundamentals and using what works for you.

    But what do I know? I could be crazy :-)

    And yes, this is a FANTASTIC discussion. I honestly had now idea this would be the outcome, but hell - I am super glad I didn't swap the post out at the last second. I thought about it.
  • Talk to any religious convert: the 'after' is diametrically opposed to the 'before.' Agile seems to have become a religion. If you say "nothing has changed" then you're old-school because you haven't accepted agile as your savior. The product owner role was created by a developer who never worked with a good product manager. As Saeed said on his web site, GOOD product managers have always been agile.
  • Steve,

    Thanks for the plug. Here's a couple of links to relevant posts I've made on the subject.

    Is Product Management Agile?
    http://onproductmanagement.net/2008/10/30/agile...

    Agile/Scrum Reality Check
    http://onproductmanagement.net/2008/09/28/agile...

    Agile/Scrum and Product Management
    http://onproductmanagement.net/2008/04/29/agile...

    Adam, sorry for posting all these links to my blog, but I think the posts are completely relevant to the discussion at hand.

    Saeed
  • Totally agree - the more the better!
  • Steve, agile does seem to have become a religion for some zealots. It's a shame that many of those same zealots have misrepresented agile.

    I don't think it's fair to say that good product managers have always been agile, as many good product managers never had the opportunity to work on an agile team and realize the benefits of frequent iterations.

    Working on an agile team, a product manager can drive iterations to put "working" product in front of customers and get quality feedback early and often. Without the cooperation of developers, a product manager can't drive this frequent feedback loop.

    There is nothing wrong with the notion of a product owner who works on a day-to-day basis with developers. I suspect you agree that the trouble arises when it is conflated with the product manager role.
  • Maybe the product owner role does. But lets not be purists.

    Some companies may want to work in an agile way, but don't have the budget for a product owner. Everyone always says how required they are in some way to do agile "right."

    All execs want to release software faster - but typically won't want to shell out the cash for a dedicated product owner. But I'll leave that discussion for another day.

    Saeed makes some great points in his writings - I'm hoping he'll join in on this discussion as well.

    I could be wrong (and probably am), but off the top of my head, doesn't the owner role only rear it's head in scrum? Everywhere else - it's just a project manager.

    And every software team could use one of those ;)
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