Are agile PMs Baloney?

by Adam Bullied on Feb 11, 09

Agile Dancer

This could catch me some heat, but I thought it was an interesting conversation so I figured I’d put it out there.

I was having a discussion with a friend over lunch a couple of weeks back, and he made a point that I kind of believed in, but never said out loud, which was essentially that the concept of an “agile product manager” really doesn’t hold much water.

OK, there – it’s out there now. I can’t take it back. And what may be even more sacrilegious – I agree with him.

“Agile” in and of itself is a development framework; I won’t even venture far enough out to say it’s a methodology. Although I’m sure some disagree, but it’s just semantics at this point.

My belief has always been, product management doesn’t change that much regardless of whether you are in tech (B2B or B2C), consumer products (like soap or fabric softener), cars, electronics, etc… Essentially it all boils down to the exact same things: you have a market, and they have a problem. You are charged with crafting the most ideal way to solve that problem, and then making that vision a reality.

Regardless of HOW those charged with executing that vision (or building the requirements) choose to do that, your paradigm doesn’t change. Developers can be working in waterfall, or they can be working in agile. You, as a product manager, shouldn’t care.

Aside from delivering market requirements and making sure things are getting done, the rest is noise.

Yes, you could write feature ideas on sticky notes. You can call those ideas a backlog. You could review them at regular intervals. Does that make you an “agile” PM? Not really – it just means you are doing your job.

Now, don’t grab your pitchforks and torches to come after me yet. Just think about it for a second.

A dev team or engineering team can choose to implement the requirements you, as a product manger, give them in any way they like – so long as they hit their schedule and estimated dates. How does that impact you? It shouldn’t. If you think it does, you are too involved in development – and being that involved in a conscious choice.

I think where most people get hung-up is the requirements themselves. If you are writing them as “as a user, i want to do X, so that I can achieve goal Y” – does that make you an “agile PM?” Not really. How is that any different than, “the system shall do X so user can achieve goal y?”

They both need mock-ups. They both need acceptance tests. They both need to be implemented.

Of course I’m going a little extreme here to make the point. Agile and waterfall have their distinct differences. And yes, they do affect product – but that’s because product works with engineers to get the product they are managing built so it can be released / sold / whatever.

At the end of the day you, as a product guy or gal, are still doing the same things: researching the market, identifying problems, devising solutions, talking to customers, providing requirements, monitoring releases, crafting positioning, etc…

Don’t get hung up on whether or not you are “agile.” You still have to get the exact same things done – regardless of the time table development is using to release them.

Let the flame war begin…

  • http://writethatdown.com Adam Bullied

    Good PMs should care about how every team works in the org. Cross-functional – and even though folks like to talk about special engineers are; I don't mean to sound like an a-hole, but they are part of the team like everybody else. Same as PMs, Sales, Marketing. They play just an equal part in making the company a success.

    A PM has to work to have a good internal / political relationship with all parts / people of the company for an optimal working relationship.

    And of course, trying to be strategic in a way that's different from how the company actually works is a recipe for disaster.

  • http://writethatdown.com Adam Bullied

    Good PMs should care about how every team works in the org. Cross-functional – and even though folks like to talk about special engineers are; I don't mean to sound like an a-hole, but they are part of the team like everybody else. Same as PMs, Sales, Marketing. They play just an equal part in making the company a success.

    A PM has to work to have a good internal / political relationship with all parts / people of the company for an optimal working relationship.

    And of course, trying to be strategic in a way that's different from how the company actually works is a recipe for disaster.

  • http://www.noozit.com/?showAuthor@739.QhdmaZLGcdI@!t0=author&t1=David%20W.%20Locke David Locke

    Where I disagree with the notion “You are charged with crafting the most ideal way to solve that problem, and then making that vision a reality.” Am I charged with that? I thought I was charged with generating revenues on a recurring basis.

    I do agree that a product manager shouldn't care what methodology gets used. If I worried about the methodology that development used, then I'd have to care about the methodology marketing used, and the methodology that everyone else in the offer used. That would be way too much and really each of those business functions has their own management to worry about those things. Just give me an accurate estimates of cost and schedule for each element of the offer.

    I'd go so far as to say that a product manager has much to care about and development is only one thing on the list. Sure it is the schedule driver, so give me an estimate that everyone else can rely upon.

    A long time ago, I was told by a programmer that he delivers functionality not usability. Having worked in software startups for a long time, I never saw a programmer interacting with customers. They don't do that. Largely, they code to spec or they code to themselves. This is fine in version 1.0 when it is the founder's vision that gets coded, but when you are out on version 6.0 and still expect to live long, it doesn't work. The software industry isn't about programmer creativity. It is about coding to meet customer needs. Those needs proliferate later in the lifecycle of software products. Those needs diverge for geek feature bloat. Can you expect a programmer to stop coding the familiar and code to meet the needs of the late market? No. That's where a product manager becomes essential. Yes, early on, before a product manager gets hired, the programmers don't need them. At some point this changes.

  • http://www.noozit.com/?showAuthor@739.QhdmaZLGcdI@!t0=author&t1=David%20W.%20Locke David Locke

    Where I disagree with the notion “You are charged with crafting the most ideal way to solve that problem, and then making that vision a reality.” Am I charged with that? I thought I was charged with generating revenues on a recurring basis.

    I do agree that a product manager shouldn't care what methodology gets used. If I worried about the methodology that development used, then I'd have to care about the methodology marketing used, and the methodology that everyone else in the offer used. That would be way too much and really each of those business functions has their own management to worry about those things. Just give me an accurate estimates of cost and schedule for each element of the offer.

    I'd go so far as to say that a product manager has much to care about and development is only one thing on the list. Sure it is the schedule driver, so give me an estimate that everyone else can rely upon.

    A long time ago, I was told by a programmer that he delivers functionality not usability. Having worked in software startups for a long time, I never saw a programmer interacting with customers. They don't do that. Largely, they code to spec or they code to themselves. This is fine in version 1.0 when it is the founder's vision that gets coded, but when you are out on version 6.0 and still expect to live long, it doesn't work. The software industry isn't about programmer creativity. It is about coding to meet customer needs. Those needs proliferate later in the lifecycle of software products. Those needs diverge for geek feature bloat. Can you expect a programmer to stop coding the familiar and code to meet the needs of the late market? No. That's where a product manager becomes essential. Yes, early on, before a product manager gets hired, the programmers don't need them. At some point this changes.

  • http://www.noozit.com/?showAuthor@739.QhdmaZLGcdI@!t0=author&t1=David%20W.%20Locke David Locke

    Where I disagree with the notion “You are charged with crafting the most ideal way to solve that problem, and then making that vision a reality.” Am I charged with that? I thought I was charged with generating revenues on a recurring basis.

    I do agree that a product manager shouldn't care what methodology gets used. If I worried about the methodology that development used, then I'd have to care about the methodology marketing used, and the methodology that everyone else in the offer used. That would be way too much and really each of those business functions has their own management to worry about those things. Just give me an accurate estimates of cost and schedule for each element of the offer.

    I'd go so far as to say that a product manager has much to care about and development is only one thing on the list. Sure it is the schedule driver, so give me an estimate that everyone else can rely upon.

    A long time ago, I was told by a programmer that he delivers functionality not usability. Having worked in software startups for a long time, I never saw a programmer interacting with customers. They don't do that. Largely, they code to spec or they code to themselves. This is fine in version 1.0 when it is the founder's vision that gets coded, but when you are out on version 6.0 and still expect to live long, it doesn't work. The software industry isn't about programmer creativity. It is about coding to meet customer needs. Those needs proliferate later in the lifecycle of software products. Those needs diverge for geek feature bloat. Can you expect a programmer to stop coding the familiar and code to meet the needs of the late market? No. That's where a product manager becomes essential. Yes, early on, before a product manager gets hired, the programmers don't need them. At some point this changes.

  • http://writethatdown.com Adam Bullied

    Totally agree. Well said, Stewart.

    Everyone seems to be buying in to the agile religion. Does anyone actually work in a 100% purely agile (down to the letter of a certain framework) org? Um, if you answered “yes” you are probably doing something wrong.

    Agile is just that a framework (not a methodology) – no one is “100% scrum” – each framework (scrum, etc…) is meant to be adopted and used to the suit the situation best. This means adding things that work for you and removing things that don't.

    I know, I know – this doesn't sound very sexy on paper. But it's reality. I've said before (I think in a post a while back) – if I have my CEO breathing down my neck to get something out the door I'm not going to throw “well, this isn't how agile works” in his face.

    I'm going to get it done, or else I'm going to expect to get canned. Reality.

    You never want to be the guy / gal forcing a round peg in to a square hole just because everyone is whispering the magic of agile in your ear. Yes it can work – in CERTAIN scenarios. it's not for everyone.

    You ever try to tell a 200 person banking project managing billions of dollars of transactions they should be agile? i have. They look at you funny and tell you if they did that, their entire team would be out of work and the project would fail instantly.

    And, yes — I've always hated labels. Ever since I learned that titles aren't worth a damn. I swear, when I start my first company I will not be the CEO – I will be the Chief Men's Room Attendant.

    I use pieces of agile in my day-to-day work. I swear. After this, some folks may not believe me – but it's due in large part to how Saeed describes the role – and how it should be inherently “agile” in its attitudes and execution.

    And somewhere in this thread is the absolute truth – it is hard to implement, regardless of the size of the company. It's tough. You know what's better? Adopting the attitudes and key fundamentals and using what works for you.

    But what do I know? I could be crazy :-)

    And yes, this is a FANTASTIC discussion. I honestly had now idea this would be the outcome, but hell – I am super glad I didn't swap the post out at the last second. I thought about it.

  • http://writethatdown.com Adam Bullied

    Totally agree. Well said, Stewart.

    Everyone seems to be buying in to the agile religion. Does anyone actually work in a 100% purely agile (down to the letter of a certain framework) org? Um, if you answered “yes” you are probably doing something wrong.

    Agile is just that a framework (not a methodology) – no one is “100% scrum” – each framework (scrum, etc…) is meant to be adopted and used to the suit the situation best. This means adding things that work for you and removing things that don't.

    I know, I know – this doesn't sound very sexy on paper. But it's reality. I've said before (I think in a post a while back) – if I have my CEO breathing down my neck to get something out the door I'm not going to throw “well, this isn't how agile works” in his face.

    I'm going to get it done, or else I'm going to expect to get canned. Reality.

    You never want to be the guy / gal forcing a round peg in to a square hole just because everyone is whispering the magic of agile in your ear. Yes it can work – in CERTAIN scenarios. it's not for everyone.

    You ever try to tell a 200 person banking project managing billions of dollars of transactions they should be agile? i have. They look at you funny and tell you if they did that, their entire team would be out of work and the project would fail instantly.

    And, yes — I've always hated labels. Ever since I learned that titles aren't worth a damn. I swear, when I start my first company I will not be the CEO – I will be the Chief Men's Room Attendant.

    I use pieces of agile in my day-to-day work. I swear. After this, some folks may not believe me – but it's due in large part to how Saeed describes the role – and how it should be inherently “agile” in its attitudes and execution.

    And somewhere in this thread is the absolute truth – it is hard to implement, regardless of the size of the company. It's tough. You know what's better? Adopting the attitudes and key fundamentals and using what works for you.

    But what do I know? I could be crazy :-)

    And yes, this is a FANTASTIC discussion. I honestly had now idea this would be the outcome, but hell – I am super glad I didn't swap the post out at the last second. I thought about it.

  • http://writethatdown.com Adam Bullied

    Totally agree. Well said, Stewart.

    Everyone seems to be buying in to the agile religion. Does anyone actually work in a 100% purely agile (down to the letter of a certain framework) org? Um, if you answered “yes” you are probably doing something wrong.

    Agile is just that a framework (not a methodology) – no one is “100% scrum” – each framework (scrum, etc…) is meant to be adopted and used to the suit the situation best. This means adding things that work for you and removing things that don't.

    I know, I know – this doesn't sound very sexy on paper. But it's reality. I've said before (I think in a post a while back) – if I have my CEO breathing down my neck to get something out the door I'm not going to throw “well, this isn't how agile works” in his face.

    I'm going to get it done, or else I'm going to expect to get canned. Reality.

    You never want to be the guy / gal forcing a round peg in to a square hole just because everyone is whispering the magic of agile in your ear. Yes it can work – in CERTAIN scenarios. it's not for everyone.

    You ever try to tell a 200 person banking project managing billions of dollars of transactions they should be agile? i have. They look at you funny and tell you if they did that, their entire team would be out of work and the project would fail instantly.

    And, yes — I've always hated labels. Ever since I learned that titles aren't worth a damn. I swear, when I start my first company I will not be the CEO – I will be the Chief Men's Room Attendant.

    I use pieces of agile in my day-to-day work. I swear. After this, some folks may not believe me – but it's due in large part to how Saeed describes the role – and how it should be inherently “agile” in its attitudes and execution.

    And somewhere in this thread is the absolute truth – it is hard to implement, regardless of the size of the company. It's tough. You know what's better? Adopting the attitudes and key fundamentals and using what works for you.

    But what do I know? I could be crazy :-)

    And yes, this is a FANTASTIC discussion. I honestly had now idea this would be the outcome, but hell – I am super glad I didn't swap the post out at the last second. I thought about it.

  • http://writethatdown.com Adam Bullied

    Bravo, David! Ohh, I just got goosebumps — I swear!

    Very pragmatic – and VERY grounded in reality. You are bang-on. Couldn't have said it better myself.

    I concur – my description of being charged with “making a vision a reality” is a little bit of business jibber-jabber. You (and in most start-up cases – the CEO) is charged with generating revenues on a daily basis.

    If you are in a 1-2 product company with 12-50 people the CEO isn't 100% focused on the revenues / P%L and expects you (the PM) to be accountable to the board (especially when VC-backed) someone has had too much kool-aid.

    Or, they don't know how to be a CEO of a start-up…

  • http://writethatdown.com Adam Bullied

    Bravo, David! Ohh, I just got goosebumps — I swear!

    Very pragmatic – and VERY grounded in reality. You are bang-on. Couldn't have said it better myself.

    I concur – my description of being charged with “making a vision a reality” is a little bit of business jibber-jabber. You (and in most start-up cases – the CEO) is charged with generating revenues on a daily basis.

    If you are in a 1-2 product company with 12-50 people the CEO isn't 100% focused on the revenues / P%L and expects you (the PM) to be accountable to the board (especially when VC-backed) someone has had too much kool-aid.

    Or, they don't know how to be a CEO of a start-up…

  • http://writethatdown.com Adam Bullied

    Bravo, David! Ohh, I just got goosebumps — I swear!

    Very pragmatic – and VERY grounded in reality. You are bang-on. Couldn't have said it better myself.

    I concur – my description of being charged with “making a vision a reality” is a little bit of business jibber-jabber. You (and in most start-up cases – the CEO) is charged with generating revenues on a daily basis.

    If you are in a 1-2 product company with 12-50 people the CEO isn't 100% focused on the revenues / P%L and expects you (the PM) to be accountable to the board (especially when VC-backed) someone has had too much kool-aid.

    Or, they don't know how to be a CEO of a start-up…

  • http://writethatdown.com Adam Bullied

    True.

    But as soon as the buzzwords start rolling off your tongue, I can 100% guarantee the eyes have glazed over.

    I've found the only way to implement agile frameworks is in bits and pieces – otherwise you run the risk of things falling through the cracks very quickly.

    In essence, as soon as everyone returns from the agile training conference you've just spent tons of valuable cash on – or as soon as the consultant walks out the door.

  • http://cauvin.blogspot.com Roger L. Cauvin

    Product owner is just a role, and a company need not hire an extra person to play that role. Sometimes a person with “architect” in his title plays the role.

  • http://cauvin.blogspot.com Roger L. Cauvin

    Product owner is just a role, and a company need not hire an extra person to play that role. Sometimes a person with “architect” in his title plays the role.

  • http://cauvin.blogspot.com Roger L. Cauvin

    Product owner is just a role, and a company need not hire an extra person to play that role. Sometimes a person with “architect” in his title plays the role.

  • http://acknak.blogspot.com bob corrigan

    Roger, I'm going to bow out of any discussion of relative value in lieu of acknowledging that any feedback is good feedback, the same way that any pizza is good pizza.

  • http://marketada.com Nathan

    Omission a by-product of my desire for brevity. I completely agree that the manner in which you interact with customers changes for the better in an agile environment. A very good, and important point.

  • http://marketada.com Nathan

    I have to disagree with you on several points here David. And if I may say so, based on your comments, I am going to guess that you have never worked in an agile environment.

    You say “just give me an accurate estimates of cost and schedule for each element of the offer” and “… give me an estimate that everyone else can rely upon. ” In two sentences you've summed up everything that is wrong with the status quo (waterfall) in product development today. This is a throw it over the wall, “you do your job & I'll do mine” approach – it doesn't work.

    Requirements are always imprecise and are often inaccurate – and they frequently change. Estimates are imprecise and their degree of imprecision is directly correlated to the size of the effort (see my post http://marketada.com/creating-optimally-sized-u…). Agile accommodates all of this, and in doing so gives you a better chance of success in the market – and that is the product manager's ultimate responsibility. This is why I maintain that the PM should concern him/herself with development methodology.

    Forgive the next few lines, but you touched a nerve….. Your perception of “programmers” as heads-down keyboard monkeys is really quite dated, and more than a little insulting. It's been my experience that developers care deeply about the customer – because they want their code to create value for users. This is, in fact, what motivates most engineers – they want to create tools that people find useful. Next time you visit a customer, take a developer with you. I think you'll be surprised at the outcome.

  • http://marketada.com Nathan

    I have to disagree with you on several points here David. And if I may say so, based on your comments, I am going to guess that you have never worked in an agile environment.

    You say “just give me an accurate estimates of cost and schedule for each element of the offer” and “… give me an estimate that everyone else can rely upon. ” In two sentences you've summed up everything that is wrong with the status quo (waterfall) in product development today. This is a throw it over the wall, “you do your job & I'll do mine” approach – it doesn't work.

    Requirements are always imprecise and are often inaccurate – and they frequently change. Estimates are imprecise and their degree of imprecision is directly correlated to the size of the effort (see my post http://marketada.com/creating-optimally-sized-u…). Agile accommodates all of this, and in doing so gives you a better chance of success in the market – and that is the product manager's ultimate responsibility. This is why I maintain that the PM should concern him/herself with development methodology.

    Forgive the next few lines, but you touched a nerve….. Your perception of “programmers” as heads-down keyboard monkeys is really quite dated, and more than a little insulting. It's been my experience that developers care deeply about the customer – because they want their code to create value for users. This is, in fact, what motivates most engineers – they want to create tools that people find useful. Next time you visit a customer, take a developer with you. I think you'll be surprised at the outcome.

  • http://marketada.com Nathan

    I have to disagree with you on several points here David. And if I may say so, based on your comments, I am going to guess that you have never worked in an agile environment.

    You say “just give me an accurate estimates of cost and schedule for each element of the offer” and “… give me an estimate that everyone else can rely upon. ” In two sentences you've summed up everything that is wrong with the status quo (waterfall) in product development today. This is a throw it over the wall, “you do your job & I'll do mine” approach – it doesn't work.

    Requirements are always imprecise and are often inaccurate – and they frequently change. Estimates are imprecise and their degree of imprecision is directly correlated to the size of the effort (see my post http://marketada.com/creating-optimally-sized-u…). Agile accommodates all of this, and in doing so gives you a better chance of success in the market – and that is the product manager's ultimate responsibility. This is why I maintain that the PM should concern him/herself with development methodology.

    Forgive the next few lines, but you touched a nerve….. Your perception of “programmers” as heads-down keyboard monkeys is really quite dated, and more than a little insulting. It's been my experience that developers care deeply about the customer – because they want their code to create value for users. This is, in fact, what motivates most engineers – they want to create tools that people find useful. Next time you visit a customer, take a developer with you. I think you'll be surprised at the outcome.

  • Simon_King

    I've got to agree: get people involved by starting small and never use buzzwords until they've bought in.

    I'm a Project Manager who's starting to buy into some of the agile / Scrum artefacts & processes. In order to get the 'marketing representative' on board with some of the agile thinking and doing, I set up a backlog and explained it to him. He loves the fact that he can add / delete / amend items and change the priority whenever he wants, in short he loves being in continual control over what the product will consist of. He also loves having something early to take to our key customers for feedback, feedback we have the time and the system to be able to incorporate into the product before it's released and therefore reduces cost and reduces the risk of the product falling flat on its face (it also starts to create a buzz).

    He doesn't care that it's all part of the agile movement, all he cares about is that he has control over the product development, that can development can be re-directed very easily and cheaply and that he can halt the development whilst still having a releasable product.

  • Simon King

    I've got to agree: get people involved by starting small and never use buzzwords until they've bought in.

    I'm a Project Manager who's starting to buy into some of the agile / Scrum artefacts & processes. In order to get the 'marketing representative' on board with some of the agile thinking and doing, I set up a backlog and explained it to him. He loves the fact that he can add / delete / amend items and change the priority whenever he wants, in short he loves being in continual control over what the product will consist of. He also loves having something early to take to our key customers for feedback, feedback we have the time and the system to be able to incorporate into the product before it's released and therefore reduces cost and reduces the risk of the product falling flat on its face (it also starts to create a buzz).

    He doesn't care that it's all part of the agile movement, all he cares about is that he has control over the product development, that can development can be re-directed very easily and cheaply and that he can halt the development whilst still having a releasable product.

  • Simon King

    I've got to agree: get people involved by starting small and never use buzzwords until they've bought in.

    I'm a Project Manager who's starting to buy into some of the agile / Scrum artefacts & processes. In order to get the 'marketing representative' on board with some of the agile thinking and doing, I set up a backlog and explained it to him. He loves the fact that he can add / delete / amend items and change the priority whenever he wants, in short he loves being in continual control over what the product will consist of. He also loves having something early to take to our key customers for feedback, feedback we have the time and the system to be able to incorporate into the product before it's released and therefore reduces cost and reduces the risk of the product falling flat on its face (it also starts to create a buzz).

    He doesn't care that it's all part of the agile movement, all he cares about is that he has control over the product development, that can development can be re-directed very easily and cheaply and that he can halt the development whilst still having a releasable product.

  • http://cauvin.blogspot.com Roger L. Cauvin

    I just decided what I'm eating for lunch today :-)

  • http://writethatdown.com Adam Bullied

    Bologna or pizza, Roger? :-)

  • http://tynerblain.com/blog/ Scott Sehlhorst

    people over process.

    hah. i said it. loving this discussion very much!

  • http://tynerblain.com/blog/ Scott Sehlhorst

    people over process.

    hah. i said it. loving this discussion very much!

  • http://tynerblain.com/blog/ Scott Sehlhorst

    people over process.

    hah. i said it. loving this discussion very much!

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  • http://www.enthiosys.com/entry/insights-tools/product-bytes/ Rich Mironov

    Setting aside all of the labeling, I (strongly) believe it's true that agile dev teams need much more from their PMs, intensively and more frequently, than old-style dev teams. And that part of the goodness of agile comes on the backs of PMs. So whatever we call it, there's 40% more stuff for PMs to do, and more time constraints.
    So I'm seeing more success with pairs (trios) of managers — call them technical PM and strategic/outbound PM if you like — than with lone gun PMs trying to pile more onto a very challenging role.
    This is a management (think executive) issue, not just an “I'm so tough I can do anything” posturing problem. The agilists ignore [hate] product managers and try to define them out of the process, and the traditionalist PMs ignore the subtleties of making software so that they can hide behind their “no new thing under the sun” rationale.

  • http://www.enthiosys.com/entry/insights-tools/product-bytes/ Rich Mironov

    Setting aside all of the labeling, I (strongly) believe it's true that agile dev teams need much more from their PMs, intensively and more frequently, than old-style dev teams. And that part of the goodness of agile comes on the backs of PMs. So whatever we call it, there's 40% more stuff for PMs to do, and more time constraints.
    So I'm seeing more success with pairs (trios) of managers — call them technical PM and strategic/outbound PM if you like — than with lone gun PMs trying to pile more onto a very challenging role.
    This is a management (think executive) issue, not just an “I'm so tough I can do anything” posturing problem. The agilists ignore [hate] product managers and try to define them out of the process, and the traditionalist PMs ignore the subtleties of making software so that they can hide behind their “no new thing under the sun” rationale.

  • http://www.enthiosys.com/entry/insights-tools/product-bytes/ Rich Mironov

    Setting aside all of the labeling, I (strongly) believe it's true that agile dev teams need much more from their PMs, intensively and more frequently, than old-style dev teams. And that part of the goodness of agile comes on the backs of PMs. So whatever we call it, there's 40% more stuff for PMs to do, and more time constraints.
    So I'm seeing more success with pairs (trios) of managers — call them technical PM and strategic/outbound PM if you like — than with lone gun PMs trying to pile more onto a very challenging role.
    This is a management (think executive) issue, not just an “I'm so tough I can do anything” posturing problem. The agilists ignore [hate] product managers and try to define them out of the process, and the traditionalist PMs ignore the subtleties of making software so that they can hide behind their “no new thing under the sun” rationale.

  • http://writethatdown.com Adam Bullied

    Well put, Rich – very well put.

  • http://writethatdown.com Adam Bullied

    Well put, Rich – very well put.

  • http://writethatdown.com Adam Bullied

    Well put, Rich – very well put.

  • http://www.onproductmanagement.net Saeed Khan

    I've always had an issue with the view that anyone in their right mind actually was a 100% adherent to a waterfall approach.

    I was lead PM on a large enterprise product. For a major release, we had a 12 month+ development cycle. This was of course after the requirements were “finalized”. Was everything static over those 12 months? Of course not. Major items such as reachitecture work went on their way, but had ongoing refinements etc, and a lot of other functionality was iterated on, reprioritized etc. over that period.

    What's nice about a 12 month cycle — you can actually have an 8-10 week beta in the middle and incorporate the feedback into the release.

    And what was I doing for those 12 months?

    A lot. Including customer visits, revalidating requirements — getting feedback on work in development etc. It is very “agile”, but it was not in least bit “Agile”.

    BTW, I think all good product managers are agile, they just never thought of creating a whole framework around it and “productizing” it. Silly PMs!

    http://onproductmanagement.net/2008/10/30/agile…

  • http://www.onproductmanagement.net Saeed Khan

    Rich,

    I think the “lone gun” PM as you describe it was a broken model to begin with. And that had nothing to do with Agile. Maybe Agile will benefit Product Management as a whole by raising the understanding that Product Management must exist as a corporate function with specialized roles, and not simply as a small team of individuals who are “hub of the wheel” or whatever trite description is applicable.

    But in the end, Agile as a development methodology has to mature to the point where decision making on a day to day basis must be handled by the development team with input from the “customer advocate”, vs. the other way around which is what many development teams seem to expect with Agile.

    Funny how developers (at least those that I worked with) could make good tactical daily decisions without my input before, but once they move to Agile, they seem to lose that capacity or expect that they can offload that to someone else.

    It's a maturity issue WRT Agile.

    Product Management needs to be business and market focused with an interface into Engineering, and not the other way around as is the case in far too many companies.

    Staff Product Management appropriately (i.e. with both the right number and skillset of PMs) and the quality and detail of the requirements will (magically) rise and the day to day dependency on PM will magically drop.

    Saeed

  • http://www.onproductmanagement.net Saeed Khan

    Rich,

    I think the “lone gun” PM as you describe it was a broken model to begin with. And that had nothing to do with Agile. Maybe Agile will benefit Product Management as a whole by raising the understanding that Product Management must exist as a corporate function with specialized roles, and not simply as a small team of individuals who are “hub of the wheel” or whatever trite description is applicable.

    But in the end, Agile as a development methodology has to mature to the point where decision making on a day to day basis must be handled by the development team with input from the “customer advocate”, vs. the other way around which is what many development teams seem to expect with Agile.

    Funny how developers (at least those that I worked with) could make good tactical daily decisions without my input before, but once they move to Agile, they seem to lose that capacity or expect that they can offload that to someone else.

    It's a maturity issue WRT Agile.

    Product Management needs to be business and market focused with an interface into Engineering, and not the other way around as is the case in far too many companies.

    Staff Product Management appropriately (i.e. with both the right number and skillset of PMs) and the quality and detail of the requirements will (magically) rise and the day to day dependency on PM will magically drop.

    Saeed

  • http://www.onproductmanagement.net Saeed Khan

    Rich,

    I think the “lone gun” PM as you describe it was a broken model to begin with. And that had nothing to do with Agile. Maybe Agile will benefit Product Management as a whole by raising the understanding that Product Management must exist as a corporate function with specialized roles, and not simply as a small team of individuals who are “hub of the wheel” or whatever trite description is applicable.

    But in the end, Agile as a development methodology has to mature to the point where decision making on a day to day basis must be handled by the development team with input from the “customer advocate”, vs. the other way around which is what many development teams seem to expect with Agile.

    Funny how developers (at least those that I worked with) could make good tactical daily decisions without my input before, but once they move to Agile, they seem to lose that capacity or expect that they can offload that to someone else.

    It's a maturity issue WRT Agile.

    Product Management needs to be business and market focused with an interface into Engineering, and not the other way around as is the case in far too many companies.

    Staff Product Management appropriately (i.e. with both the right number and skillset of PMs) and the quality and detail of the requirements will (magically) rise and the day to day dependency on PM will magically drop.

    Saeed

  • http://christophercummings.com/ Chris Cummings

    Very interesting post and discussion!

    In my view, Product Managers–the good ones, anyway–are “agile” by nature, regardless of how development is configured.

    For example, we're often accountable for the success of our products without line management authority over those working on our products. This requires agility, as you work within a matrix environment and essentially lead others, get things done through them, without authority.

    Market research, proper pricing, win/loss analysis, web-based sales & marketing collateral, market segmentation … I've heard several people say these are “agile PM” duties, but really these are simply the responsibilities of any Product Manager, and they just happen to require an agile frame of mind.

    Put a different way: If you aren't doing these things, and you're a PM, you're not really doing your job.

    - Chris
    http://twitter.com/chriscummings01

  • http://christophercummings.com/ Chris Cummings

    Very interesting post and discussion!

    In my view, Product Managers–the good ones, anyway–are “agile” by nature, regardless of how development is configured.

    For example, we're often accountable for the success of our products without line management authority over those working on our products. This requires agility, as you work within a matrix environment and essentially lead others, get things done through them, without authority.

    Market research, proper pricing, win/loss analysis, web-based sales & marketing collateral, market segmentation … I've heard several people say these are “agile PM” duties, but really these are simply the responsibilities of any Product Manager, and they just happen to require an agile frame of mind.

    Put a different way: If you aren't doing these things, and you're a PM, you're not really doing your job.

    - Chris
    http://twitter.com/chriscummings01

  • http://christophercummings.com/ Chris Cummings

    Very interesting post and discussion!

    In my view, Product Managers–the good ones, anyway–are “agile” by nature, regardless of how development is configured.

    For example, we're often accountable for the success of our products without line management authority over those working on our products. This requires agility, as you work within a matrix environment and essentially lead others, get things done through them, without authority.

    Market research, proper pricing, win/loss analysis, web-based sales & marketing collateral, market segmentation … I've heard several people say these are “agile PM” duties, but really these are simply the responsibilities of any Product Manager, and they just happen to require an agile frame of mind.

    Put a different way: If you aren't doing these things, and you're a PM, you're not really doing your job.

    - Chris
    http://twitter.com/chriscummings01

  • http://launchclinic.com Dave Daniels

    I agree with you Adam. The market has problems and a PMs job is to figure out how to solve that problem in a profitable way (assuming profit is the motive). Unfortunately many “product managers” are really project managers that get sucked into the private hell of development. Product marketing managers feel the Agile angst as it relates to launching products, and wonder how they too can be more “agile”. I say it doesn't matter. You're not going to launch a product after every iteration because a) you don't need to and b) your sales channel couldn't absorb the change. Hmmm… agile sales? Not going to happen.

  • http://launchclinic.com Dave Daniels

    I agree with you Adam. The market has problems and a PMs job is to figure out how to solve that problem in a profitable way (assuming profit is the motive). Unfortunately many “product managers” are really project managers that get sucked into the private hell of development. Product marketing managers feel the Agile angst as it relates to launching products, and wonder how they too can be more “agile”. I say it doesn't matter. You're not going to launch a product after every iteration because a) you don't need to and b) your sales channel couldn't absorb the change. Hmmm… agile sales? Not going to happen.

  • http://launchclinic.com Dave Daniels

    I agree with you Adam. The market has problems and a PMs job is to figure out how to solve that problem in a profitable way (assuming profit is the motive). Unfortunately many “product managers” are really project managers that get sucked into the private hell of development. Product marketing managers feel the Agile angst as it relates to launching products, and wonder how they too can be more “agile”. I say it doesn't matter. You're not going to launch a product after every iteration because a) you don't need to and b) your sales channel couldn't absorb the change. Hmmm… agile sales? Not going to happen.

  • http://writethatdown.com Adam Bullied

    Very nicely said – and some great points. I think PMs always run the risk (especially in start-ups where they don't have a team surrounding them – they are usually running solo) of getting tied-up fighting fires too much.

    I know I've done it. It's something I always try to keep my eye on…

  • http://writethatdown.com Adam Bullied

    Very nicely said – and some great points. I think PMs always run the risk (especially in start-ups where they don't have a team surrounding them – they are usually running solo) of getting tied-up fighting fires too much.

    I know I've done it. It's something I always try to keep my eye on…

  • http://writethatdown.com Adam Bullied

    Very nicely said – and some great points. I think PMs always run the risk (especially in start-ups where they don't have a team surrounding them – they are usually running solo) of getting tied-up fighting fires too much.

    I know I've done it. It's something I always try to keep my eye on…

  • http://www.onproductmanagement.net Saeed

    Steve,

    Thanks for the plug. Here's a couple of links to relevant posts I've made on the subject.

    Is Product Management Agile?
    http://onproductmanagement.net/2008/10/30/agile…

    Agile/Scrum Reality Check
    http://onproductmanagement.net/2008/09/28/agile…

    Agile/Scrum and Product Management
    http://onproductmanagement.net/2008/04/29/agile…

    Adam, sorry for posting all these links to my blog, but I think the posts are completely relevant to the discussion at hand.

    Saeed

  • http://www.onproductmanagement.net Saeed

    Steve,

    Thanks for the plug. Here's a couple of links to relevant posts I've made on the subject.

    Is Product Management Agile?
    http://onproductmanagement.net/2008/10/30/agile…

    Agile/Scrum Reality Check
    http://onproductmanagement.net/2008/09/28/agile…

    Agile/Scrum and Product Management
    http://onproductmanagement.net/2008/04/29/agile…

    Adam, sorry for posting all these links to my blog, but I think the posts are completely relevant to the discussion at hand.

    Saeed

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